Several weeks ago at Union Square I was approached by a Christian youth pastor who had received one of my Jesus Dress Up fliers during their "free show" (preaching & hymns). After a lengthy conversation he thought it appropriate to bring by 2 of his teenage students to meet a real live atheist... ME!

They were all from Canada, here in New York to preach the word God to us. Courtney believed in God because a dying friend of hers miraculously healed when she prayed (she'd want me to emphasize that "doctors couldn't explain it"). Jasen argued that dinosaurs existed during Biblical times.

Jasen was the only one with "proof", so that's where this episode of Hate Mail begins. Enjoy...

His emails will be in blue while mine are in black and white.

Holy Cow!
The Canadian Jasen Files have caused an uproar! Here is a bunch of responses from people regarding this page of hate mail.


This is in response to the newest update to your Canadian Jasen files. He writes:

"....people thought that the world was the center of the universe. This theory was called the geocentric theory, then a man, I can't think of his name right now, discovered that the earth was not the center of the universe, but that instead, the sun is the center of the universe, this is known as the heliocentric theory."

He fails to mention that the geocentric therory was actually supported by the church and when Galileo (I think thats how you spell it) published his book on the heliocentric theory, he was condemned by the church. Also the heliocentric theory, does not mean the Sun is the centre of the universe it means the EARTH revolves around the Sun as do the other planets.

He also wrote:

"according to you, my children will be better off because I lifted weights. So maybe you should start lifting too, so that our species can be made better because the our generation lifted weights, so we gave birth to stronger children."

Here he describes Lamarckian evolution by transmission of acquired characteristics. Not Darwinian evolution. No wonder he doesn't believe in evolution, he was taught it all wrong.

Finally when he says there is no evidence to link man to apes, he conveniently ignores fossile evidence of primates all the way from aegyptopithecus to australopithecus to cro magnon. If this is how x-ian science works, I'm glad there is some of the other kind of science to make life work.

Kartik Rajan


Hey Bob,

I read the letters from jasen and he stated that in the good ol "dark ages"there was a man who claimed the universe was heliopcentric, while the church mainly and because of that the world believed it was geocentric, well there were 2 men who said this copernicus and Galileo Galilei , the later invited the scientists from the church to look through his telescope and to see he was right, they did not so, started bickering and decided he was a heretic, the catholic church did not say he was right until the 20th cenntury, a few centuries later since the man's death, so i was thinking how can mr jasen use this as an argument especially when he doesn't know his name, cause this whole example is anti-church, it cleary lets us see that the churh wanted everybody to believe the universe was geocentric and kept it at that, not interested in the truth, so mr jasen, it's the same with the world is flat example, this idea stemmed from the early times of mankind and was not rejected until a long time later, cause the church made sure that the idea of the flatness of the world was the one truth,

ps i am student history and a big fan, greetings

Tom Ottenheym


Hey Bob,

I still check in on the site every once and awhile to see what's new, and I love the athiest pamphlets. I'm just shocked you didn't think of it sooner.

I also read that you were feeling lonely (love diaries?), which I'm feelin' too because I just recently moved to downtown Toronto and I'm not diggin' it as much as I thought I would. I end up driving an hour back to the hometown on the weekends to see familiar faces. And I've been single for almost 2 years and that's probably what you meant when you said lonely anyway.

Regardless, what spurred me to actually write in was this Jasen fellow. I'm sick of weak Canadians! They're the ones that cause a buzz, most Canadians are wicked...but they're all at the bar chillin with a pint, minding their own damn business. So it's all the other ones that give us a bad name! If you're Canadian and you say dumb shit, write bad songs or produce TV shows/movies of a Mentos-like caliber, do EVERYONE a favour and stay the fuck home. Thanks for comin out. I'm tired of "Canadian" being used as an automatic designation of geekdom, us proudly waving the maple leaf representing a nation of people seemingly unknown to the fact that we may be viewed as mildly autistic. It's sad! Jasen, shut up!

Sara

“I'm sorry that I can't write more, but I have to go get ready for football practice now”

Subject: dinosaurs in job

Dear Bob,
Hi, its Jasen from Union Square, the kid that you talked to for about an hour and 15 minutes. Here are the verses from Job that talk about a dinosaur living during the same time that men were living. There is also like a little description kinda thing about the verses and the website from which the description came. I'm sorry that I can't write more, but I have to go get ready for football practice now, but if u write back, there is more verses that I can give u that talk about dragons if u want them.

Job 40:15-24
15 Look at the behemoth, which I made along with you and which feeds on grass like an ox.
16 What strength he has in his loins, what power in the muscles of his belly!
17 His tail sways like a cedar; the sinews of his thighs are close-knit.
18 His bones are tubes of bronze, his limbs like rods of iron.
19 He ranks first among the works of God, yet his Maker can approach him with his sword.
20 The hills bring him their produce, and all the wild animals play nearby.
21 Under the lotus plants he lies, hidden among the reeds in the marsh.
22 The lotuses conceal him in their shadow; the poplars by the stream surround him.
23 When the river rages, he is not alarmed; he is secure, though the Jordan should surge against his mouth.
24 Can anyone capture him by the eyes, or trap him and pierce his nose?

40:15-24 Behold Now Behemoth
There is a load to learn from this, but I want us to first keep the context in mind. God is pointing to an amazingly powerful creature and saying, "Job, look at this thing's strength, which is so far above yours. Can you even catch him? I am his Creator." God is using this creature to show Job that he isn't strong enough to stand up to the creature, much less His Creator.

What Is Behemoth?
Now, this is where we stop and begin to investigate what this creature is. The Hebrew word "Be-hay-MOHTH" is the plural of "be-hay-MAW," which means "beast." But although plural, it is used in a singular form. This is lingusitically called an intensive or majestic plural, making it a beast which is grandiose, huge, and awe-inspiring.

A Hippo?
Many commentaries say that the Behemoth is a hippopotamus. One early commentator (Jablonski), even made up a non-existant Egyptian word ("p-ehe-mu") which supposedly means "water-ox" to justify that position. But as we read the description God gives Behemoth, it is clear this is no hippopotamus. Look at verse 17: Job 40:17 ³He bends his tail like a cedar..."
The hippopotamus' tail is hardly a cedar tree. It's more like a twig! Then, verse 24 says that he is not able to be captured. This clearly does not apply to the hippopotamus, who today can be seen in zoos all around the world.

A Dinosaur?
I believe the clearest clue as to the beast's identity is found when we read in verse 19, Job 40:19 ³He is the first of the ways of God"
The word "first" here is the Hebrew word "ray-SHEETH." This comes from "roshe," which means, "head, top, summit, upper part, chief, total, sum, or height." A better translation might be, "He is the tallest beast God ever made." What is the tallest creature God ever made? While some might say the Brontosaurus at 25 feet tall, he's not even close. Brachiosaurus was 40 feet tall. But at this point in our discoveries, the largest creature thought ever to walk the earth was Sauroposeidon, whose fossils were found in Southeastern Oklahoma in 1994. Scientists estimate that Sauroposeidon had a 40-foot long neck, was 98 feet long, weighed about 60 or 70 tons, and stood 60 feet tall! Whichever dinosaur the largest beast turns out to be, could this be what Behemoth is - a dinosaur?
Certainly all of the details given in Job seem to fit. An herbivore (40:15), with strength focused in the abdominal area (40:16), a tree-like tail (40:17), huge bones that are strong as metal (40:18), and able to stand in the midst of a rushing river and not be moved (40:23-24).

Jasen


First of all, right out of the gate, I have to tell you that the concept of human beings (like you and me) having once lived along side the dinosaur is still complete and unbridled madness in my book. It's a theory no respectable historian, scientist or archeologist would even consider, laughing off the suggestion with something along the lines of: "What? Did some 15 year old come up with that one?"
It's a non issue, easily wiped from the chalkboard when you take into account the timeline necessary for a species to populate the world then become extinct.

With that said and my bias laid out on the table I must tell you these passages in Job present as much evidence for the theory as they do against it. Let me show you what I mean.

This 98 foot tall creature also seems to hide amongst the reeds in the marsh (Job 40:21 & 22) and in the shadows of the lotuses (a flower like a lily... the pads frogs sit on). It seems to be quite short in stature is you ask me, to lie in the shadow of those.

And it's a marsh Jasen, not the deep blue sea or the never ending ocean. Have you ever seen a marsh? I assure you that the 70 ton Sauroposeidon did not hide under the lilies there. I can also tell you why CalvaryChapel.com didn't address these particular issues, because that part doesn't fit very well. It's a crock Jasen, in every sense of the word.

Or maybe it's the fire breathing dragon? Maybe perhaps these dragons lived in herds amongst Job? Or Jasen, maybe these are more passages that aren't to be taken literally, just like the other ones in the Bible that don't make sense literally.

Okay, now what I'd like you to do is compare all of this with my reasoning. Please ask yourself this: Do you think that over the generations an animal species changes form? For instance, the slower, weaker gazelles are caught and eaten while the quicker and stronger are left to reproduce. Or the fish that actually finds a way to crawl upon the land when the pond dries up, then passes this skill onto its spawn. Or two male bears fighting over a female bear, the winner of which gets to mate thus raising the chances of having better baby bears. Do you Jasen believe that these things occur?

Now do you believe that over the course of a million years this natural occurrence in life changes/improves a species? This is what I believe. It explains everything; how we got where we are today, how life operates and why things are the way they appear to be.

Somebody may have found a way to translate some random, ambiguous passage from your Bible to explain how dinosaurs fit into a 10,000 year timeline with us, but my beliefs make more sense. Speakin' of "makin' sense", tell me about the dragons!

Bob
PS. I would love copies of the pictures you took of us while you were here. Could you email me them?


“ I'm sry that the verses couldn't do nethin for u”

Dear Bob,

I'm sry that the verses couldn't do nethin for u, but to say that no respectable historian, scientist, or archeologist would consider this is ludacris.  Back in the late 1800s the curator of archeology from the oakland california musesum of natural history was searching thru some old indian dwellings in a canyon in Arizona. On the walls of the canyon he discovered paintings done by the indians ancestors. These pictures were of an elephant, an ibex, a dinosaur, and other animals. Here are some quotes that Dr. Hubbard said about the dinosaur drawings. "Taken all in all, the proportions are good.", "depicted in the attitude in which man would be most likely to see it‹reared on its hind legs, balancing with the long tail, either feeding or in fighting position, possibly defending itself against a party of men² (Verrill, 1954, pp. 155ff.), and ³The fact that some prehistoric man made a pictograph of a dinosaur on the walls of this canyon upsets completely all of our theories regarding the antiquity of man.... The fact that the animal is upright and balanced on its tail would seem to indicate that the prehistoric artist must have seen it alive" (1925, pp. 5,7, emp. in orig.).

Left: Edmontosaurus (courtesy of Paul S. Taylor, Eden Communications).
Right: Petroglyph discovered by Dr. Samuel Hubbard in Havai Supai Canyon (courtesy of www.bible.ca).

 In a nearby area that he found the drawings, dr. Hubbard and some other archeologist found dinasour tracts that were identified to b from the Triassic period (more than 165 million years ago) according to evolutionist. Now let me ask u a question bob ­ how could an Indain draw a perfect picture of a dinosaur that they had never seen b4??? According to evolutionist, no advanced mamal lived during the time of dinosaurs, but then how could the Indians have drawn a perfect picture. A late evolutionary paleontologist named George Simpson said that the only mamals that had evolved back then were ³small, mostly about mouse-sized, and rare² (Simpson, et al., 1957, p. 797).

 Javier Cabrerea Darquea was given a birthday present, when he was young, that was a burial stone that was used by the early Incan Indians. When he got older, Dr. Darquea went to find more of these stones and eventually had over 11000 burial stones. Almost one third of these stones had pictures of dinosaurs on them. Another question for u bob ­ once again ­ how could Incan indians (who lived around A.D. 500-1500) draw pictures of animals that they had never seen or heard off???

 In 1990 some dinosaur bones were sent in to get Carbon dating at the University of Arizonas department of geosciences. Theses bones were from an allosaurus, and an acrocanthosaurus. When the results for the carbon dating were done, they said that the bones for the allosaurus were only 16120 years old. The bones for the acrocanthosaurus were only 23760 years old. That sure isnt newhere near the dates that evolutionist said that dino¹s lived.

 In the first two chapters of Genesis and in Exodus 20:11 and 31:17, the Bible tells us that everything was made durin creation week. The first two chapters of Genesis also tell us that all land animals, including man and dinosaurs, were created on the 6th day.

If u read farther down in the chapter ­ to verse 23 to b exact ­ it tells u that he is in the Jordan river, which reaches depths of up too 1,312 feet (400 m). Another question bob ­ can a 98 foot tall dino hide in 1312 feet of water, I think so.

Just because a sick or young gazelle is eaten by a lion doesn't mean that the species of gazelles is getting stronger or better. And how does a fish crawl on land, ive been fishing a lot, and ive never seen a fish start crawling when I pulled him out of the water.

I only have a couple more questions for u bob ­ what animals eat apes? And if they eat the weak apes, how does that make the strong apes turn into humans? And y r there still apes if they involed into humans???

Here are the verses that talk about the dragons

Job 41 1-24
1 "Can you pull in the leviathan with a fishhook or tie down his tongue with a rope?
2 Can you put a cord through his nose or pierce his jaw with a hook?
3 Will he keep begging you for mercy? Will he speak to you with gentle words?
4 Will he make an agreement with you for you to take him as your slave for life?
5 Can you make a pet of him like a bird or put him on a leash for your girls?
6 Will traders barter for him? Will they divide him up among the merchants?
7 Can you fill his hide with harpoons or his head with fishing spears?
8 If you lay a hand on him, you will remember the struggle and never do it again!
9 Any hope of subduing him is false; the mere sight of him is overpowering.
10 No one is fierce enough to rouse him. Who then is able to stand against me?
11 Who has a claim against me that I must pay? Everything under heaven belongs to me.
12 "I will not fail to speak of his limbs, his strength and his graceful form.
13 Who can strip off his outer coat? Who would approach him with a bridle?
14 Who dares open the doors of his mouth, ringed about with his fearsome teeth?
15 His back has rows of shields tightly sealed together;
16 each is so close to the next that no air can pass between.
17 They are joined fast to one another; they cling together and cannot be parted.
18 His snorting throws out flashes of light; his eyes are like the rays of dawn.
19 Firebrands stream from his mouth; sparks of fire shoot out.
20 Smoke pours from his nostrils as from a boiling pot over a fire of reeds.
21 His breath sets coals ablaze, and flames dart from his mouth.
22 Strength resides in his neck; dismay goes before him.
23 The folds of his flesh are tightly joined; they are firm and immovable.
24 His chest is hard as rock, hard as a lower millstone.

41:1-24 Leviathan Another beast, this one called "Leviathan." The Hebrew word "Liv-yaw-THAWN" comes from a root meaning "to coil and twist."

A Crocodile?
Many commentators claim that Leviathan is an alligator or crocodile. Again, I have two major problems with the conventional interpretation - one philosophical, and one physical.
First of all, read verse ten:
Job 41:10 ³No one is so fierce that he dares to arouse him; Who then is he that can stand before Me? God's main point here is that the Leviathan is unconquerable by man. Crocodile hunters and alligator wrestlers have, throughout the centuries, conquered these beasts. If Job could wrestle an alligator or kill a crocodile, then he would nullify the Lord's argument and enable himself to stand before God.
But even from the physical description, we can see that this isn't an alligator or crocodile. A beast that no one will challenge, skin covered with double-armored scales that cannot be pierced by swords, spears, arrows, or javelins. His teeth are terrifying, his belly is covered with sharp edges. When he swims, the water is churned up to white frothing, and when he stands up, he looks down on everything. And most controversial of all, verses 18-21 clearly describe a creature who breathes fire.

Fire-Breathing?
How can I believe in an actual living creature breathing fire from it's mouth? Well, I believe in a lot of strange things! I also believe in fireflies with bioluminescence, the ability to transform chemical energy into light. I believe in eels that shock their prey to death using organs in their tails which can generate up to 650 volts - five times the voltage that comes out of a wall socket.
I believe in beetles whose bodies squirt a chemical from one chamber into another, causing an explosive reaction that shoots boiling-hot noxious gases into the face of their enemies.
Is it so strange to believe that, with animals like this in existence today, an extinct species of dinosaurs could breathe fire? Scientists have questioned why several dinosaur species have certain hollow areas in their skulls. These may have been reaction chambers for combustive chemical reactions. Unfortunately, since the chemicals that would fuel such a reaction - as well as any glands that would produce them - can't be preserved through fossilization, we can only use the ducts and chambers in the skulls to theorize how this may have happened.

Dragons
Now, have you ever stopped to wonder about why so many civilizations from all over the world have legends of fire-breathing dragons? And it's always dragons, never fire-breathing bears or wolves. Why is that?
I believe these are remnants of man's history with these beasts. "Wait a minute, Ron. Are you talking about dragons or dinosaurs?" Both. You see, I believe that they are one and the same. You see, the Bible never mentions dinosaurs, because the word didn't even exist until 1841, when Sir Richard Owen created it by combining the latin words for "terrible" and "lizard." Although the word dinosaur is not in the Bible, the word "tan-NEEN," which means "dragon," is used frequently. And Leviathan is called "the dragon who lives in the sea" in Isaiah 27:1.
I believe that man's legends of dragons come from his history with dinosaurs.

What Do You Believe?
"Now wait a second!" some protest. "Everybody knows that dinosaurs became extinct 65 million years ago, a full 60 million years before man's ancestors appeared." Yes, that's what we've been told, but its far from the truth.

When Were They Created?
You see, the Bible says that God created all of the animals on the earth on the fifth and sixth days: Gen. 1:20-25 Then God said, ³Let the waters teem with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth in the open expanse of the heavens.² God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarmed after their kind, and every winged bird after its kind; and God saw that it was good. God blessed them, saying, ³Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth.² There was evening and there was morning, a fifth day. Then God said, ³Let the earth bring forth living creatures after their kind: cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth after their kind²; and it was so. God made the beasts of the earth after their kind, and the cattle after their kind, and everything that creeps on the ground after its kind; and God saw that it was good. Verse 21 mentions that God created "the great sea monsters" on the fifth day. Many people believe these to be whales, as the KJV translates, or the "great creatures of the sea" as the NIV renders it. But the Hebrew is "gaw-DOLE tan-NEEN," literally meaning, "huge dragons."
God created man on the sixth day, a day after the sea and sky dinosaurs, and the same day as the land dinosaurs. Contrary to what the evolutionists teach, they coexisted, alive at the same time in history. At least two of them were still around in Job's day, because God was able to use them as examples to him.

Sin
But some Christians don't want to go there. "That flies in the face of science! It's a proven fact that the dinosaurs died out long before man got here!"
I'm going to make a statement that will challenge you greatly: You can't believe that and think that you're a Christian. Why not? Because the Bible says, Rom. 5:12 ...through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men Rom. 5:17-18 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. In other words, the Bible teaches that death came because of Adam's sin, and Jesus paid for sin with His death. 1Cor. 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But if you believe that the dinosaurs died before man sinned, then the entire foundation of sin, the cross, and all of Christianity is destroyed. If you believe in the pre-man death of dinosaurs, then you don't believe you're under the curse of original sin, and therefore have absolutely no need for a Savior.

Summation
The Scriptural, archaeological, and historical facts prove that man and dinosaurs co-existed. But the most important point of Job is not that dinosaurs were still alive in his day. It is that God created them. These beasts that could stand in the middle of raging rivers, breathe fire from their mouths, and be so much more powerful than any human being, were created by God. Job couldn't contend with these creatures, so he certainly couldn't contend with their Creator. But that same all-powerful God who can't be fought against can be fellowshipped with, through the forgiveness offered to us in Jesus Christ, Who died to pay the price of our sins

from the same website as the other one

I have to go to football now
Talk to u later

Jasen

P.S. I don¹t have the pictures ­ courtney does, but she is out of town till Friday, so when she gets back ill try to get them from her and send them to u.


Okay, now Jasen, don't take this personally but in all honesty there is no weight to anything you say. Beyond the fact that you're only 15 and you don't know how to spell "tracks", you seem to simply believe everything you read whether or not it makes sense. You and I both know that there's a web site to find whatever argument you're looking for. You yourself said that we can't trust science or archeology so why is there any more validity to all of these references you've made? It seems that now you're just copy/pasting every argument and you're no longer thinking for yourself. It doesn't say much for your beliefs.

Please put down the football and try to use your brain for a moment. I realize that fish aren't crawling around on the floor of your rowboat, but there are fish that walk up onto land and they're able to survive for up to 3 days. It's not a far out concept and this is a prime example of how struggling to survive enhances a species.

Asking me "what eats apes?" shows me now just how silly you're being and how bad you are at debating. Did you know that female apes favor the strongest male for mating? You don't have to be the star quarterback to understand that this helps make for stronger baby apes. It isn't the process of being eaten that strengthens a species' family tree, it's the reproducing of the better.

The reason that there are still apes is because families of apes separated and started new packs. It's been theorized that the ones who ventured from the trees gradually began to walk upright because they had to see over the tall grass of the plains (the apes that stayed in the trees maintained their posture and upper body strength for climbing), and because they ventured from the forests they evolved at a greater rate (encountering new obstacles, coping with different environments and eventually sharing ideas with other tribes that also ventured).

Jasen, I know that I will not convince you. I'm not attempting to, really. The reason that I'm explaining myself so thoroughly (in my own words) is so that when I post these emails people can see who's thinking and who's reciting. They will witness one person argue dinousaurs/dragons existing along side Mr. Job, while another explains why an ape's struggle to survive matters in the long run. I want people to think and see how simple and obvious it all really is. One fish dies and one fish survives and this effects the evolution of the species in a positive way.

I also post the letters so people can see that most of the opposition has a 15 year old mentality; always quoting other people (starting sentences with "The Bible says..." or "Dr. Samual Hubbard says..."), both condemning and relying upon archeology and science. And it doesn't help that you abbreviate using numbers and letters in combination to form "long" words (6 letters or more): b4?!?!
What I'm saying is that it's obvious to me and the reader that you are not yet thinking.

Jasen, you've still got a lot of time ahead of you to figure it all out. Do our species a favor and dare to venture from the pack. Use your own words and put the upper body strength on the back burner for a spell. You'll discover there's a lot to gain by simply thinking more.

Bob
P.S. I can't wait for those pictures! Thanks!

 

The Canadian Jasen Files Part 2!
Past Hate Mail