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The Philosophy students at Cambridge discuss Jesus Dressup!
...and they're not at all pleased.

His letters are in yellow, whilst mine are in black & white.

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Subject: whats up...

God loves you... He may not like what you do, but He truly loves you. He wants to have a father/son relationship with you. Give Him a chance, and believe.

Ron

True love?!?! Oh, how my heart gushes with hope at the promise of True Love!!! I BELIEVE! I BELIEVE!! I'LL BELIEVE ANYTHING THAT COMES TO ME SAYING THEIR LOVE IS TRUE!!! And I collapse to my knees, my face wet with tears; Soapy, foamy tears of anticipation & surrender!

Seriously Ron. I have a dad. I'm almost 40. I'm not frantically searching out dads to put in line behind the one I've already got. There comes a time when you have to say goodbye to the daddies and just be a grown adult all on your own. It's called "manhood," and it's a rewarding goal.

I'm there already.
Thanks anyhow.
Bob


Dear NBS-

Love your site! I am impressed that you are taking a stand.

Often, when a religious person starts to see that they are losing the argument about religion, they say "my belief doesn't hurt anyone". That is so wrong!

Religion has caused us to ignore bacteria evolving into treatment resistant forms. Religion has caused us to ignore stem cell research. Religion has caused unwanted births by forbidding sex education. Religion caused 9/11. Religion causes us to suffer in this life in hopes of a false reward after we die. Religion keeps us from growing.

Faith is believing something in spite of evidence. Since faith does not respond to reason, the only way to decide an argument about faith is forbiding the opposition of opposing beliefs.

Thank you for what you do!

bob (not Bob)

“A man was whipped and crucified to death..”

A man was whipped and crucified to death, regardless of what you think of his teachings, his suffering as a human is not to be made fun of.

Show some compassion.

Tom Markham
tommarkham@live.co.uk

He was whipped and crucified to death, then a few days later he rose from that death, alive, with the ability to fly! So he hugged his friends goodbye and flew up into the sky to heaven where he sits on a throne to this day, god of all the universe.

There was also a guy named Superman who died fighting against an unstoppable villain called Doomsday, and I bet you've no problem whatsoever playing a dressup game depicting a dead Superman that you can dress up, mock and make fun of all day long, huh?

Bob

“A similar comparison to your actions would not be making fun of superman, but making fun of Christopher Reeve (the actor paralyzed in an accident.)”

Well, again seem rather confused.

Superman didn't exist.

Jesus AS A MAN did exist, the debate is whether he was Christ and whether he rose to life. I would respect your belief that he was not God incarnate. But I cannot respect you finding amusement in the suffering of a human being.

A similar comparison to your actions would not be making fun of superman, but making fun of Christopher Reeve (the actor who played Superman who was paralyzed in an accident.)

Compassion, at all times, for all.
Tom Markham
tommarkham@live.co.uk

Ahh, but Christopher Reeves was real, and when he died he didn't get to come alive again, have lunch with his friends, then fly off to paradise forever. See Tom, when real, nonfiction people die they don't come back and fly around. I always thought this was just common knowledge. Apparently not.

Don't you think it's interesting all of these gods we've invented, like Zeus and Apollo and Ra and Allah and Vishnu and a hundred others didn't really exist after all, but this time, this particular one you call Jesus did?

You do realize all the other gods which were around before your Jesus, they also had followers who believed as much as you do that they were real too? In fact, there are gods alive TODAY that have millions of followers who believe as strongly as you do in Jesus. Had you heard of Sathya Sai Baba? 6 million followers minimum! People are inventing new gods all the time, and millions upon millions follow and believe. And you want me to accept the one you've got in your head is for real too, based on the writings of people who are 2,000 years more ignorant than the ones who follow Sathya?

Tom, I have a bridge I'd like to sell you... CHEAP!

Bob

“Jesus DID exist. This is an established fact”

I return to my original point, which you have not answered.

Jesus DID exist. This is an established fact, he existed as much as Christopher Reeves, Sathya Sai Baba, Me and You. His existence was recorded by the Romans, The Jewish Priests and his followers. You would be in an extreme minority of Biblical Scholars if you doubted his existence AS A MAN.

BUT. What one may justifiably doubt was whether he "came alive again, had lunch with his friends and then flew off to paradise." That is, whether you doubt his existence AS DIVINE.
However your website finds amusement in suffering: the crufixion of a man - divine or not.
A man was nailed to a cross - fact - he may not have been the son of god, he may have been a raving lunatic, a deceiver of men, a liar - but i cannot take pleasure or amusement from his suffering.

Furthermore whilst I may not have faith in Sathya Sai Baba, i will not produce a website after his death making fun of the disease or torture which will eventually kill him. I respect him enough as a human being not to do something like that, and i would respect you more as a human if you saw the cruelty in your actions.

Tom Markham
tommarkham@live.co.uk

If you think it's established fact that Jesus Christ of Nazareth who led 12 disciples & died on a cross definitely existed then you haven't done your research.

His existence is absolutely questionable, and the few writings outside of the Bible that exist are highly scrutinized for probably being forged hundreds of years after. Even his execution isn't found in Roman documents. If you have other information please direct me to the Roman accounts of Jesus outside of the Bible. That's quite a find you have there!

Let me also add that arguing "Jesus just a man" existed is about as meaningful as arguing that the stories of Superman were based on a real guy named Clark Kent. Who cares? Without the super natural events an entire religion is rooted in lies! A path of lies does not in any way lead to truth.

If a quarter of the planet at some point bows down to worship Sathya Sai Baba as God of All the Universe, you will be doing everyone a great disservice letting it all go unquestioned, uncriticized and yes, unmocked.

These rules and regulations you want to promote are enforced quite well in Islamic culture, and look how well that's worked out for them!

Bob

“Then perhaps we should create a new game,
Where we can hang Lassie, and choose various comical items to stab her with whilst she is dying!”

Then perhaps we should create a new game,
Where we can hang Lassie, and choose various comical items to stab her with whilst she is dying! Or! We can choose various supermarket bags for Lassie to choke on!

After all Lassie doesn't exist outside of stories and our imagination.
And anyone who suggests that it is cruel to take delight in the torture and suffering of an animal is wrong, because Lassie never existed!!

Furthermore, I find it slightly gratuitous that you see your work as a great form of criticism.
I cannot imagine great Atheists like Dawkins, Russell or Ayer would support your work and play the game. I think they would see it as the work of a goon.

Get started on the game!
Tom Markham
tommarkham@live.co.uk

Or how about an infant slaughtering game where you have to fill up a giant meatgrinder with children using just a pitchfork and a pile of weeping bodies?

Or how about a game where people run down the street killing real life people and each person gets you 100 points! How about that? There's no difference between killing people in real life and Jesus Dressup.

Or how about we just set all the forests of the world on fire and kill every innocent animal in the forest. then the person who burns down the most forests wins?

Tom, if you can't see the difference between the game you thought up and the game I thought up that's your problem, not mine. I'm mocking a Supreme Being that's lived from before anything existed and will live to the end of infinity; an eternal Superman who stands over a million miles tall and light beams for eyes, possessing all of the knowledge of the universe and powers beyond any we could possibly imagine.

Get it together, Tom.

Bob

“Looks to me like you are sticking a pumpkin mask on a man in pain.”

"I'm mocking a Supreme Being that's lived from before anything existed and will live to the end of infinity; an eternal Superman who stands over a million miles tall and light beams for eyes, possessing all of the knowledge of the universe and powers beyond any we could possibly imagine."

Looks to me like you are sticking a pumpkin mask on a man in pain.

Perhaps we do see the world completely differently, Bob.
Tom Markham
tommarkham@live.co.uk

Wait, so he is just a man?

“I showed it to a discussion group at the [Cambridge] Philosophy Department at University and the resounding opinion was disgust and shame from Muslims, Christians, Jews and yes Bob - Atheists.”

Perhaps you have not understood my argument all along.
I have never stated that I am a Christian, and I am not.
I have never stated that I believe in God - (I am a Member of the Cambridge University Atheist Society)

Whether Jesus is God incarnate, or not, I feel that you "Let the team down" by doing something so heartless and stupid. I showed it to a discussion group at the Philosophy Department at University and the resounding opinion was disgust and shame from Muslims, Christians, Jews and yes Bob - Atheists.

Tom Markham
tommarkham@live.co.uk

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! Your Cambridge philosophy group was disgusted and shamed! What an unprovoked brick in the face that must've been for all of you during such trying times. Christ, I love imagining you all waving your fingers in the air each trying to outdo the other on the amount of outrage you each feel over a fun-time dressup game.

Tom, first of all, fucking grow a pair! If you're there, an atheist, debating philosophy with a group of religious faith-heads, you're not bringing shit to the table when your springboard is "We must respect the gods." And that's all it is, Tom. I assure you people do not see a crucifix and think "Look! There's a regular guy getting crucified!" No. They think, "God." Others of course think "Not God." But the definite purpose of that symbol I'm defacing is religious and it's a blanket statement about the entire universe based on faith, and its statement is absolute: "Believe or suffer forever."

Tom, the MOMENT anyone declares someone or something a "god" without any evidence to back it up the rainfall of scrutiny, disrespect and mockery should flow from the lips of atheists. Not violence, vandalism or censorship, mind you. But good ol' ballbusting jokes, and ribbing. Short of that, you're condoning the belief and part of the problem.

Hey, you know what would be a far more interesting topic to bring to the table there in your philosophy group? You should all discuss the fascinating topic of "The different ways to absolve oneself of sin" throughout history. Discuss how people once used to sacrifice goats, or virgins (including children) to wash away their crimes. I had a fella from Mexico tell me that God used to be okay with simply touching heads with a cow to transfer your sins to it that way, then banishing it from the village taking all of your sins with it! That's one of my favorites. I once came up with the process of whispering your shames into a paper bag and throwing the bag on a fire. I tried it myself, and it worked! Then of course there's the ever popular "believe the Son of God died for them & pray them away" solution. Our fantastic imaginations fiendishly plotting out solutions to the inconvenience of feeling guilty. Because if there's one thing that seriously sucks it's that feeling of guilt after you screw someone over, and the world would be a much better place to be if we could bypass that feeling, huh Tom? Now that'd be a fun topic to discuss with these religious friends of yours.

Christ, what a politically correct atheist you're striving to become, huh Tom?
Bob

“I feel a more mature response to religion - and in fact, a more effective one - is to try to be a compassionate, understanding individual”

Well, just as long as you know, in civilised thought - you are considered a bit of a clown.

Do you think that your "criticism" has any effect on people's faith?

Most studies on the matter serve to highlight that your website has the reverse effect you intend it to have. By showing Jesus being humiliated Christians will not start thinking "yeah! it is all bollocks! Fuck it!" In fact, such mockery hardens religious faith.

This is well demonstrated by the "Images of Muhammed" affair in Denmark - By mocking Muhammed in the Newspapers, Muslims united - and their beliefs hardened. Now I support the Danish Press in Producing those Cartoons as I am against Censorship - however if i sought to reduce the influence of religion in a society, i wouldnt do it by cartoons of Buddha being hung, Jesus being crucified, Muhammed being strangled etc.

I feel a more mature response to religion - and in fact, a more effective one - is to try to be a compassionate, understanding individual (something I fail at often) without a belief in God.

Otherwise Bob, lets face it, you just piss people off.

Perhaps you could tell me more of yourself? Just so I know to whom I am talking.

Tom Markham
tommarkham@live.co.uk

Just in case you missed the part on my site where I put on clown makeup, make jokes, dance around and mock everything, I AM A FREAKING CLOWN!!! What, you think I'm trying to get on the Mensa lecture circuit with all this? Do you see me rockin a graduation cap and a monocle? I went to The Passion of the Christ in a tuxedo and red devil makeup, for Christ's sake! Good god, is this what they're doing to you kids at Cambridge? Stripping you of your social skills and trading it in for an all-inclusive patronization of mankind?

Listen, no amount of compassion, understanding, soothing whispers or baby-talk is going to change the mind of a true believer. Trying to present a mature response to people who believe a super wizard used magic to make the universe because he was lonely is pointless. It's like mud wrestling a pig- it doesn't take long before you can't tell the difference between you and the pig. A TRUE true believer HAS to believe no matter what your arguments, logic or sweet talk might be. It's just the rules of the game they have to follow or they'll burn forever. What my site DOES do however is sway fence-sitters. Hundreds of times I've gotten emails from people who're either wrestling with their beliefs, or playing the field to see what makes the most sense, and my merciless ribbing of the moronic sways them to the logical.

Another thing I've discovered that comes from what I do is closet atheists finding kinship. I can't tell you how many letters I've gotten from nonbelievers who, for the first time, have seen their beliefs reflected on my site. And in addition to that have had no idea how to argue their beliefs until they started reading my hate mail section. In fact, after posting your letters one of my readers sent me this:

"When dealing with the mockery of Jesus as a man we must consider the pain and suffering done in his name and then compare the death of the man to the countless torments perpetrated in his name. By comparison Jesus died a simple death and he was killed sooner than crucifixion intended, whereas the deaths died during the crusades, witch-trials, Inquisition, and any other ridiculous religious persecution varied in time, method, and pain. Because these deaths were senseless, any pain suffered by Jesus (as a man) is insignificant and furthermore worthy of mockery. While violence to any person is an injustice to every person, mocking the death of someone who provoked more violence is justified."

Thank you very much Mark!

Ya see? We're all helping each other out, making me a smarter atheist, making you a smarter atheist, making strangers smarter atheists and it's all thanks to Jesus Dressup, the catapult for it all. But no! You and all your Cambridge brainiac friends wanna snuff it out because it's mean, and sad, and not enough tear drying, back patting and hand jobs for people who get hurt feelings when their Supreme Being is teased. For them let's all make a 2 second long sad face :(

Tom, that about sums me up.
Bob

Comment on this page.
And if you've heard other fascinating solutions from actual religions
for ridding oneself of guilt I'd love to start that list!

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